revobob 10/13/2019 7:24:38 AM

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From Buzz in the Pub-

Well, yes...and no.

I've seen my Chabad-run synagogue rent itself out to otherwise-nonobservant Jews for Bar Mitzvahs, where there were people who were using cell phones to photograph the proceedings---on Shabbos.  The money for the rental trumped the strictures of observance, which dictate that there should be no photography, and no electronic devices, being used on premises on the Sabbath.

I've seen the Chabadniks putting the pressure on someone nonobservant to put on tefillin, but there's no followup to that---no way that the proselytizers go from that first put-on-tefillin coercion to something that might actually lead somewhere. 

I've seen the Chabadniks push "Tanya," the kaballistic/metaphysical musings of the Chabad rebbes, over teaching actual Torah, or Talmud, or even Maimonides' Mishneh Torah.

I've seen a clear demarcation among the Chabadniks between those who are born into Chabad, those who become major Chabad converts, and those who are merely the people who attend/support a Chabad synagogue.

I've seen the Chabadniks play the nonobservant to basically pay the Chabadniks to be "proxy Jews" for them---to get the nonobservant to donate as a form of "indulgence," along the lines of, "Well, I may not be observant, but I can assuage my guilt over that by paying to support those who are willing to be."

My Orthodox cousin has on more than one occasion said that Chabad is "the religion closest to Judaism," meaning that while they appear to be Jews, they are actually one step removed despite their appearance.

So, in other words they are just like the vast majority of people- accepting religious beliefs and observances until it becomes inconvenient. :-)

buzzsawmonkey 10/13/2019 8:34:43 AM

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Reply to revobob in 1:

Not exactly.  I'm saying that Chabad is a sect which has certain differences from the Orthodox Judaism they claim to represent.  In a sense, given their adulation of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, they resemble very-early Christianity in the years immediately following the death of Jesus.  

Their efforts to evangelize nonobservant Jews, a survival of the Rebbe's directives, has many good points---Chabad establishments are all over the place, so if you are traveling and observant they are one place you can be assured of finding a congregation and a kosher meal---but that evangelization is also relatively shallow; persuading someone to put on tefillin is a good thing, but it doesn't mean much as a one-off.

My own disillusion with Chabad has a lot to do with the local rabbi and his family; he (and they) have immense energy, but they don't really know how to market their product to the people living in the neighborhood they've chosen as their territory.  They are good at rote learning, which is important and has its place, but they are dismal failures at attempting to discuss the substance of that learning in terms which relate in an active way to the lives of the people they are trying to reach.

Kosh's Shadow 10/13/2019 10:31:14 AM

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Reply to buzzsawmonkey in 2:
Out in the suburbs, Chabad is one of the few places with real Orthodox services. I was raised Orthodox (although we kept kosher at home but would go out and eat lobster, clams, shrimp....)

I can go and not have to pay for an expensive membership or tickets, and the services are largely in Hebrew, which satisfies my soul a lot more than the modernized services with more English that isn't even good translations of the Hebrew and Aramaic.

There is some reference to the Rebbe, various stories and, of course, a picture on the wall, but no mention of the messianic cult that was big shortly after he died. 

And some classes that I went to for a while, but they started running too late. 

lucius septimius 10/13/2019 10:34:27 AM

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In #2 buzzsawmonkey said: they are dismal failures at attempting to discuss the substance of that learning in terms which relate in an active way to the lives of the people they are trying to reach.

Not really an unusual problem, especially for people that are "true believers" by habit.  

The comparison to the early church is interesting.  My own theory, based on the earliest earliest texts relating Christian worship for which we have clear evidence (the Didache and some of the surviving liturgical material found in Paul's letters and the OT Pseudepigrapha), is that the basic patterns of worship reflected the forms of Sabbath observance in Hellenized diaspora communities in Egypt, Greece, and Asia Minor.  The first part involved the readings and prayers, the second part the Sabbath meal.  Originally the first part occurred in the synagogues; when Christians were expelled (or left) the two parts were combined in celebrations held in private homes.  The earliest Eucharistic prayer is clearly derived from the Sabbath blessings (critical is that the bread and cup are reversed compared with later Christian practice) and does not contain the biblical formulas that are part of the canon of the Mass.  Nearly every early Christian prayer is a Jewish blessing with added language about Jesus.  And most of them don't even have that.  Christians tend to forget that for most of the first century of Christianity, the Bible was the Septuagint.  The Gospel was proclaimed in the context of the Derashot as parallels were drawn between received teachings of Jesus (preserved orally) and the readings.  

The real change comes in the middle of the second century; at that point a radically different form of worship emerges which was then codified towards the middle of the third century.

Kosh's Shadow 10/13/2019 11:05:58 AM

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In #4 lucius septimius said: Originally the first part occurred in the synagogues; when Christians were expelled (or left) the two parts were combined in celebrations held in private homes

They left the Jewish services when the blessing against heretics was added to the Shmoneh Esrei, or Amidah, the central prayer of the services. This seems to be a way of keeping early Christians, which were, as we know, a Jewish sect that considered Jesus to be the Messiah, out of the services. Note that in Judaism, the Messiah comes once, not twice.

Link

Text:

Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.

revobob 10/13/2019 11:20:23 AM

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Oy to the veh! Thank you all for the comments. I spent a little time on Huston Smith's 'The World's Religions' but apparently not enough. I have also been reading a fair amount of fact-based fiction set in various periods ranging from the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire to England in the 1400s. I have learned a fair amount about a subject I was ignorant of (yeah, yeah- one of the many), but very little about the interaction of early Christianity and Judaism. This is probably due in large part to those being periods in which Jews were not so much persecuted as not being allowed to live in England and much of Europe. I hate it when y'all kindle my curiosity to go forth and study more! (Not really- I need the challenges to keep my aging mind from further ossifying!)

Thank you.

If anyone is interested in what I consider good reads, I commend to you Margaret Frazer, Peter Tremayne, Ellis Peters, and the Belisarius series by David Drake.The first three are pen names used by serious scholars with solid academic chops. 

revobob 10/13/2019 11:23:37 AM

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Kosh's Shadow 10/13/2019 12:36:49 PM

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In #7 revobob said: and now, having enjoyed all the spiritual edification I can stand for today, back to NASCAR! (Talk about yer antitheses!)

But will you still watch NASCAR when they go hybrid?

RACEIST!/

buzzsawmonkey 10/13/2019 1:25:31 PM

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Reply to revobob in 7:

Reply to Kosh's Shadow in 8:

I can't wait for NASCAR to welcome drivers from the Indian subcontinent.  We can have lascars in NASCAR!

buzzsawmonkey 10/13/2019 1:28:51 PM

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Reply to lucius septimius in 4:

As I believe I said yesterday, my Orthodox cousin calls Lubavitch "the religion closest to Judaism," not because they are "the true Jews," but because of the streak of messianism running through Lubavitch as regards the Rebbe.

He's the one who told me the joke, "What's the difference between Moshe Rabbenu (Moses, our teacher) and the Lubavitcher Rebbe?

Answer: "We know Moshe Rabbenu is dead, but no-one knows where he's buried.  We know where the Lubavitcher Rebbe is buried, but we're not sure he's dead."

Kosh's Shadow 10/13/2019 1:57:18 PM

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In #10 buzzsawmonkey said: He's the one who told me the joke, "What's the difference between Moshe Rabbenu (Moses, our teacher) and the Lubavitcher Rebbe? Answer: "We know Moshe Rabbenu is dead, but no-one knows where he's buried.  We know where the Lubavitcher Rebbe is buried, but we're not sure he's dead."

A lot of people go to the Rebbe's grave with requests - including, shortly before the election, Ivanka Trump.

Kosh's Shadow 10/13/2019 1:58:09 PM

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Reply to Kosh's Shadow in 11:
And it is true that Chassids in general go to their Rebbe's graves with requests. It isn't confined to Chabad/Lubavitch.

lucius septimius 10/13/2019 2:24:52 PM

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In #10 buzzsawmonkey said: We know where the Lubavitcher Rebbe is buried, but we're not sure he's dead."

I love it.

I've always been fascinated by the Sabbateans and the whole concept of "redemption through sin."  

revobob 10/13/2019 2:28:06 PM

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In #8 Kosh's Shadow said: But will you still watch NASCAR when they go hybrid?

That will be, to me, a sad day in racing. OTOH, given that NASCAR still runs carburetors and rear wheel drive, I doubt that a complete change to hybrids will happen anytime soon. They are however doing testing on hybrids, so I suppose it will happen- perhaps as an exhibition class at first.

Formula 1 keeps going astray from what made it great, and now has a separate class for electric race cars. The telling point is that each team requires 2 cars with an intermission in the races where they change cars- battery life will not support a reasonable length race.

Racing draws spectators in large part with visceral sensations. In the F1 E-cars, the loudest noise is the occasional chirp of the tires. No matter how fast they go, it is NOT REAL RACING without the screaming of high performance engines singing at full song.

The other aspect now increasingly missing is the developmental side of reflecting future cars to actually be sold to the public. F1, Indycar, and NASCAR are all, IMHO, screwing up by running cars that are essentially clones except for paint schemes. All 3 series run engines built to the same specs, in indistinguishable chassis, on the same brands of tires, burning the same fuel. (Specific to each series, of course.)

I would love to see either F1 or Indycar go back to the old open rules- specify a contact patch area for the tires, a (high) maximum volume for the total sound signature, and a maximum kCal content for the fuel supply, and a driver enclosure meeting safe standards. Turn the designers loose and see what happens. I think we would see alternate fuels, a variety of powerplants, and a symphony of sights and sounds that would capture the currently waning spectator appeal.

buzzsawmonkey 10/13/2019 2:33:00 PM

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In #13 lucius septimius said: the whole concept of "redemption through sin."  

I've been trying to persuade my synagogue to start issuing a Lubavitch version S&H Green Stamps.  What better way to get people thinking about the Final Redemption than to have a "redemption center" in the interim?

revobob 10/13/2019 2:38:12 PM

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In #9 buzzsawmonkey said: I can't wait for NASCAR to welcome drivers from the Indian subcontinent.

NASCAR not so much yet, but F1 has an Indian owned team and a couple of development drivers. NHRA (drag racing- in hot rods, not heels!) has some Arab participation. Indycar, F1 and NHRA allow drivers to 'buy' rides, typically by bringing their own fortunes or sponsors to pay the costs. If they can ante up, they can play as long as they have the skill to pass the relatively low qualifications for the necessary license. To my knowledge NASCAR drivers can do something similar, but the sponsors rely on proven talent.  Nascar and NHRA are more 'purely American' in appeal and the sponsors are generally not as concerned with international marketing as Indycar and F1. Thus most of the drivers and decision makers are also American.

revobob 10/13/2019 2:40:16 PM

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In #15 buzzsawmonkey said: I've been trying to persuade my synagogue to start issuing a Lubavitch version S&H Green Stamps.  What better way to get people thinking about the Final Redemption than to have a "redemption center" in the interim?

You do realize how that comment reveals your age, right?

Kosh's Shadow 10/13/2019 2:56:33 PM

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Reply to revobob in 14:

The racing groups have made changes so it is no longer the cars and drivers that compete; it is just the drivers. I can, in a way, understand that. At one time, racing was done at speeds that could be reasonable for highway driving. The first Indy 500 race with a speed over 100 was 1925 (link)

Now, there is still something that can be learned, in the way of control, suspension, braking, tires, and driver protection, but it isn't the same.

And I agree - electric races are not going to get the same attendance. The noise is part of it! (This from someone who has never attended a car race, actually)
Jukebox

buzzsawmonkey 10/13/2019 2:58:26 PM

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In #17 revobob said: You do realize how that comment reveals your age, right?

No, this comment reveals my age:

They demand ID everywhere I go

In case there's a discount that I don't know

Are you senior?

Tell me, are you senior?

There's ten percent off if you present ID

You look old enough, but show it to me

Are you senior?

Tell me, are you senior?

buzzsawmonkey 10/13/2019 3:22:00 PM

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Reply to revobob in 17: Reply to buzzsawmonkey in 19:

BTW, that was a riff on the Chi-Lites' song, "Have You Seen Her?", in case the reference is obscure.

Kosh's Shadow 10/13/2019 3:22:07 PM

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Reply to revobob in 17:

The local classical station has a sponsor S&H construction, and I wonder if they give green stamps, too.

I do remember getting a model WWII Enterprise with them. Waited for an eternity at the redemption center, too.