revobob 2/27/2020 5:47:44 AM

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I have been participating in a Bible study group at church, and I have a couple questions for our resident scholars of Judaism.

The first is about the 6th Commandment. The church I am going to uses the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' translation, but my understanding is that the original Hebrew word used applies to murder (only). I'd be interested in your thoughts. One explanation I've seen is that the English word 'kill' was, in 1610, also used only for murder. and was not updated as the language shifted.

Second, we've been reading about Solomon's construction of the Temple. In I Kings, 8, 41-43, Solomon asks G-d to hear and answer the prayers of 'strangers'. Our pastor is interpreting that as an invitation for non-Jews to convert, including being circumsized. I cannot see a basis for that. Is there some discussion in perhaps the Talmud or other text that amplifies on this?

Thanks, and I'm sorry I haven't been around much- many other things going on right now, and I haven't been very sociable.

buzzsawmonkey 2/27/2020 7:05:46 AM

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Reply to revobob in 1:

The Commandment, though usually translated as "Thou shalt not kill," is indeed regarded as a prohibition against murder, not "killing" per se; elsewhere in the Torah there are not only justifications for war, but for killing in self-defense in various circumstances, e.g., when a thief breaks into one's house.  Indeed, the one justification for abortion in is for a situation where the pregnancy is life-threatening to the mother, in which event the fetus is considered a "rodef," i.e., one who pursues with intent to kill---because in such a situation one goes with the existing life, not the potential life.  

A footnote in one of my books mentions that there are many things which Torah jurisprudence regards as akin to/equivalent to murder, such as denying a traveler the food or shelter he is in need of.  There are, I believe, some passages which suggest that talebearing and gossip can fall within this category, since the damage to a person's life and reputation which can result from such things is also "akin to murder."

In sum, "killing" in self-defense is not in any way forbidden by the commandment.  Recall that the Torah provides for death-penalty punishments, though it forbids condemning anyone to death on the testimony of a single witness, and provides, too, that witnesses who lie be condemned to suffer the fate of the accused they hoped to harm.  Recall, too, that the Torah provides for a number of "cities of refuge," to which someone who accidentally slays another can flee for sanctuary, to be safe from the prospect of retaliation by the family or friends of the slain. 

Hope this helps some.

buzzsawmonkey 2/27/2020 7:26:17 AM

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Reply to revobob in 1:

Regarding the reference to Solomon's Temple and those who went to it, I looked up the passage.  My Hebrew is not as good as it should be (or used to be), but the term used in that passage is not the one normally used for converts; the term usually used for "converts" and translated as "stranger" is "ger," which is not the term used in this passage.

This suggests that the passage is indeed referring to non-Jews who came/might come to the Temple to join in the festivities, and who were to be welcomed for doing so---just as non-Catholics and non-New Orleans natives come to New Orleans to participate in the bacchanal of Mardi Gras.  There are accounts, I believe in the Torah, and certainly in the Talmud, of people of all sorts coming to the Temple for festival celebrations (it's not as though tourism is a modern phenomenon).  

buzzsawmonkey 2/27/2020 9:59:12 AM

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doppelganglander 2/27/2020 10:17:56 AM

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Reply to buzzsawmonkey in 4:

Just incredibly busy today. I have a meeting with my supervisor to review my work first thing tomorrow morning and I have to leave early today, so it's heads down. 

Occasional Reader 2/27/2020 10:18:53 AM

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In #1 revobob said: The first is about the 6th Commandment

That one provides your right to an attorney.

Occasional Reader 2/27/2020 10:24:31 AM

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In #4 buzzsawmonkey said: Where the hell are you people?

https://youtu.be/x1iV24hL8Rk

revobob 2/27/2020 12:16:48 PM

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In #4 buzzsawmonkey said: Where the hell are you people?  You're screwing up our "learned discourse" stats.

Sorry- I got into looking up some references too, and then had to see my orthotics guy- New Shoes and inserts!!!! YAY!!!

Thank you for the answers. On the topic of strangers at the temple, I found a number of references to the effect that (OR will love this!) when aliens sojourn among the Israelites they are to be welcomed including being permitted to make offerings to G-d in the Tabernacle and Temple. In Numbers it stresses that there shall be one set of laws for both Israelites and gentiles. I found it interesting that that was stated so explicitly.

As is usually the case on the innerwebz, there is so much info to winnow, with each tidbit leading to another that it is easy to get immersed to the exclusion of anything else.

Of course there are also the things that make me stop and want to call bullsh@t. I am, for example, dubious about the size of the armies involved during the war against the Phillistines when David fought Goliath, and as a guy who has managed a small brass foundry I have trouble understanding how a muscle powered, wood burning culture could have accomplished the castings described for Solomon's Temple. 

Trying to winkle out population numbers for any of the Biblical areas is challenging too. 

buzzsawmonkey 2/27/2020 12:33:41 PM

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In #8 revobob said: my orthotics guy- New Shoes and inserts!!!! YAY!!!

I'd really appreciate anything on this topic you'd care to share.  I've been suffering recently from a whole set of foot problems.  

Thanks in advance for anything you choose to post.

vxbush 2/27/2020 12:50:00 PM

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In #5 doppelganglander said: Just incredibly busy today.

I'm afraid that's my excuse as well. Meetings, software rollouts, preparing to purchase new hardware and get ready for some stuff being delivered--I'm trying to tread water and the tsunami wave is crashing over my head. 

doppelganglander 2/27/2020 1:00:02 PM

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Reply to vxbush in 10:

It's not as bad as all that here. I am comfortably busy. I'm sure it will be much busier as I start dealing with hard deadlines after my onboarding process.

vxbush 2/27/2020 1:16:39 PM

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In #11 doppelganglander said: It's not as bad as all that here. I am comfortably busy. I'm sure it will be much busier as I start dealing with hard deadlines after my onboarding process.

I had a coworker who wanted me to come up with multiple scenarios for a computer lab and do pro/con analysis for each scenario and a cost comparison. That took quite a while. Now we're also looking at hardware purchases and the coronavirus situation is playing a big part in delaying deliveries, which becomes a budget issue. 

PaladinPhil 2/27/2020 2:33:48 PM

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Syrah 2/27/2020 2:37:54 PM

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With the big drop in the market, what suggestions do people have for bargain shopping?

What industries are most likely to experience high growth in the next 5 to 10 years?