vxbush 5/21/2020 6:24:49 AM

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Morning, campers. For work reasons I've been trying to better understand how well SARS-COV-2 lives on surfaces. My primary concerns are papers and computer keyboards, of course, but I'm trying to better understand it in general. (I'm trying to prepare for when we get back to work and how likely transmission will happen on computer keyboards and any handouts left in the computer lab.)

First stop: the CDC. They updated their post on April 13 about how well you can transmit the disease on surfaces, and said in very bland language, "It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes. This is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads, but we are still learning more about this virus." Well, that wasn't really helpful for me, and reading material developed for a 5th grade reading level wasn't giving me enough information. 

Second stop: scientific articles. There isn't a lot of research on survivability of the novel coronavirus, but there are some preprint articles. One preprint article said the virus was undetectable after 3 hours. A second preprint article suggested the virus could not be viably detected on cardboard after 8 hours. Not the same as paper, but sort of close. That would suggest the lab would be okay after sitting overnight. 

So I thought I would expand the search to see what has been released in just the last month on general virus survivability. And there are some analyses and at least one meta-analysis of how viruses live in general on surfaces. 

The results for the meta-analysis paper are interesting and studies the first SARS virus and a few other viruses (but not the current novel one). The range of values for survivability just of the first SARS virus goes from 5 minutes to 4-5 days. Seeing a range of values doesn't surprise me; seeing such a wide spread in values does. Unfortunately, I'm not conversant enough in the detection methods and testing regimens to understand the nuances of the testing to understand what is going on here. So I'm not finding it that helpful. 

(One other thing that is noted--a virus might be detected on a surface, but it might not be viable, in that it can't infect you. The concern isn't finding any virus on the surface; the issue is finding viable virus cells capable of infecting a person. I believe all these studies were concerned about viable cells.)

Has anyone seen anything more specific on this topic? I'll keep searching, as I need a good handle on this.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 6:47:37 AM

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In #1 vxbush said: Has anyone seen anything more specific on this topic?

Good morning.  No.  And the CDC needs to be more clear on this, from what I've read they just sort of stealthily changed the descriptive part on their webpage, without making any announcement about new findings on the subject.

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 6:49:13 AM

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So, listening to Morning Sedition today, they were going on and on about a spanky-new computer model---just what we were waiting for!---which says that IF only we'd done bigger and better lockdown SOONER, why, thousands would have been saved!  This from the same people who fought every initial imposition of the current draconian measures.  But, never fear---all is not lost!---because now we know that the next time there is a whisper of anything potentially-pandemic-like, we can and should re-impose such measures more early and strongly. 

Since we're being ribbed up for the OMIGOD! RESURGENCE! narrative, it is clear that the Left is just itching to impose Lockdown 2.0 at the first hint of a whisper of "resurgence"---and, if we don't, why people will die!

This all came in the midst of a broadcast liberally sprinkled with "the virus disproportionately affects minorities," and a moving tale of a plucky little Hispanic girl from the Bronx who struggled mightily to be able to get access to the Internet, because her family hadn't paid its bill, and who was finally given a tablet by the school system because her computer wasn't working, or something.  I tell you, it was like listening to stories of Abe Lincoln learning by firelight in the log cabin and writing his lessons in charcoal on the back of the shovel.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 6:52:13 AM

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Karen Brzezinski demands to speak to the Twitter manager (about Trump's account)

vxbush 5/21/2020 6:53:57 AM

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In #2 Occasional Reader said: Good morning.  No.  And the CDC needs to be more clear on this, from what I've read they just sort of stealthily changed the descriptive part on their webpage, without making any announcement about new findings on the subject.

Yes. I only knew about the change because PJMedia had a quick blurb about it in the daily briefing. I have no doubt that they are trying to be careful and accurate and probably have many stories to support the theory that the virus is not transmitted via surfaces, but I really wanted to see footnotes or a biography to support this. I need to check the clinical side of the CDC's info as opposed to the public side; that might have what I want. 

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 6:54:36 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 2:

The problem with CDC is that it is yet another government bureaucracy.  The goal in bureaucracies is never  to solve a problem, because if there was no problem then there would be no reason to expand their budget.  Instead they have to keep things as murky as possible and say "we need to know more" which translated means "give us more funding and let us hire more staff (thus allowing the lower ranks to increase their importance by having underlings) and buy more toys (to provide a wider range of confusing and noncommittal answers)."

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 7:00:18 AM

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In #3 buzzsawmonkey said: hich says that IF only we'd done bigger and better lockdown SOONER, why, thousands would have been saved!

And one of my reflexive-liberal friends was parroting that exact line, of course, in a conversation last night.  Before he could even get to the inevitable Trump-bashing part, I pointed out that exactly nobody was calling for a national lockdown back in February; and that any such recommendation would have been greeted with alarm and indignation, given what was known (and not known) at the time.  That seemed to shut him down; so instead he went on to saying 'you compare this to, say, all the people who die from guns, yet we do NOTHING about guns!".  I replied, that's a very different topic, it's not infectious disease, the guns themselves are not actually causing the shootings; etc.  He was silent, then said, "yeah, well, I'm just glad I'm not a black jogger!".  Um, okay.  So I replied that, leaving aside the evolving details of that case (hint: No, he wasn't just a "jogger"), that sort of shooting represents a tiny percentage of the so-called "gun violence" in the US; and if you believe otherwise, you've been watching too many Law & Order episodes. 

Give the progs credit, they do know how to get their talking points disseminated quickly and efficiently. 

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 7:03:09 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 4:

Let's all sing the Mika Mouth Club theme song:

Who's the biggest Leftist flack on MSNBC?
M-I-K! A-B-R! Z-E-Z-inski!
Who spouts vapid talking points to amuse you and me?
M-I-K! A-B-R! Z-E-Z-inski!
Mika Mouth! Mika Mouth!
She can't think, but it's fun to watch her try
Try! Try! Try!
The cable TV source for maximum ris'bility!
M-I-K! A-B-R! Z-E-Z-inski!

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 7:05:13 AM

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Reply to buzzsawmonkey in 8:

Reminds me of a day recently when I started singing the actual Mickey Mouse Club song whilst in the kitchen.  The children were shocked.

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 7:07:31 AM

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The WaPo ran a story explaining the real reason that all the "conservatives" want to open up the county:  evangelicals.  Evangelicals, you see, believe in heaven, so it's ok if they die.  And since the people they don't like will go to hell, they don't care about them either.  Because evangelicals.

It may be the single stupidest thing I've seen yet.  Meanwhile, the left is lapping it up, tripping over themselves to come up with new insulting names for Christians behind grandma killers.  It's bizarre.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 7:13:08 AM

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In #9 lucius septimius said: Reminds me of a day recently when I started singing the actual Mickey Mouse Club song whilst in the kitchen

The perfect song to sing after a bloody battle in which you finally vanquish your enemies.  

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 7:14:03 AM

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But the children!!!!!

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported last week that 15 children under age 15 in the U.S. have died of Covid-19 since February compared to about 200 who died of the flu and pneumonia. Children represent 0.02% of virus fatalities in the U.S., and very few have been hospitalized.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 7:24:02 AM

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In #7 Occasional Reader said: And one of my reflexive-liberal friends was parroting that exact line,

One of the more bizarre moments in that conversation was when I mentioned that the "lockdown" measures represented a severe curtailing of civil liberties, and so had to be very well-justified.  He promptly said, "oh, I don't know if I'd call it 'civil liberties'."  Incredulous, I asked: Would you not consider your freedom to leave your house and walk down the street, without being potentially stopped by a cop who demands to know whether you're doing so for an "allowed" purpose, a civil liberty?   He hemmed and hawed, mentioned something about well there was rationing during WWII and hey weren't there curfews or something when we were growing up, sometimes?, and then finally, grudgingly, conceded that yes, maybe there was a civil liberties element involved in one's right to leave one's own home.  

This reinforces my believe that this whole "lockdown" thing has become, literally, a fetish for the Left. 

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 7:30:24 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 13:

The ever-increasing false equivalencies on the Left are...disturbing.

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 7:37:29 AM

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In #7 Occasional Reader said: Give the progs credit, they do know how to get their talking points disseminated quickly and efficiently. 

Having a government-subsidized propaganda outlet like NPR/PBS in no way inhibits their ability to do so.  Should have been either re-calibrated with some conservative balance or de-funded long ago.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 7:40:39 AM

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In #10 lucius septimius said: The WaPo ran a story explaining the real reason that all the "conservatives" want to open up the county:  evangelicals.

Oh good grief.

doppelganglander 5/21/2020 8:02:50 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 7:

One of the things the CDC has been doing in recent years, instead of their actual jobs, is treating "gun violence" as a disease and using epidemiological models to find a "cure," i.e. gun control. The portion of their budget that goes to that nonsense should be cut or redirected to studying actual diseases like, oh, I dunno, Covid-19. 

Syrah 5/21/2020 8:15:16 AM

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Something is very wrong with this lockdown.

https://mynorthwest.com/1882695/herman-motivation-washington-media-covid-19/

vxbush 5/21/2020 8:23:30 AM

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In #13 Occasional Reader said: This reinforces my believe that this whole "lockdown" thing has become, literally, a fetish for the Left. 

Well, that's not how I read this. It sounded like the Left really doesn't get "civil liberties" at all, instead focusing on intersectionality and only interpret "liberty" as "freedom to have sex however I want and be called whatever I want." The idea of walking around and associated freely isn't actually considered liberty in their minds. It must go back to their position that evangelicals and conservatives shouldn't have any rights at all (well, certainly not on college campuses). 

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 8:24:29 AM

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In #17 doppelganglander said: One of the things the CDC has been doing in recent years, instead of their actual jobs, is treating "gun violence" as a disease and using epidemiological models to find a "cure,"

Maybe we should also treat crime as a disease, generally.  There's precedent; and thankfully, a cure. 

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 8:25:19 AM

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I still want IKEA to file a suit demanding that Americans have the right to free assembly.

After all, they are a Swedish company, and Sweden didn't go into lockdown.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 8:27:45 AM

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In #19 vxbush said: Well, that's not how I read this.

So, to explain further: I'm right, and you're wrong.

But seriously, folks; yes, of course their adherence to the concept of "civil liberties" has long been tenuous, at best.  But I think there's also another side to the coin; they affirmatively love the lockdown, at least at some level.  It seems to feed something they need.  They're not merely indifferent to the cost in civil liberties; they actively fetishize the concept of an entire country under house arrest. 

Syrah 5/21/2020 8:28:15 AM

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Reply to vxbush in 1:

virus on surfaces. 

Some food production facilities use UV lights, set on timers, to help sterilize a food prep area.

i don’t know if that would in any way be applicable in your situation.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 8:28:29 AM

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In #21 buzzsawmonkey said: I still want IKEA to file a suit demanding that Americans have the right to free assembly.

But that right to free assembly always comes with a few extra, baffling pieces. 

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 8:28:34 AM

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Reply to vxbush in 19:

The left are interested in "human rights," which are the antithesis of "civil rights." Civil rights are those inherent rights of ALL individuals that are protected by the government.  Human rights are extra-legal privileges granted by the state to select groups of people, defined in ideological terms, at the expense of the civil rights of the majority.

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 8:29:34 AM

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In #24 Occasional Reader said: But that right to free assembly always comes with a few extra, baffling pieces. 

Extra, baffling pieces are the essence of freedom.

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 8:30:22 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 22:

They are in love with absolute, dare I say total power.  And as professional busy-bodies they want other people to behave and think exactly the way they deem appropriate.  Shutting everything down and then selectively permitting some people to do some things -- it is what they dream of.

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 8:31:26 AM

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In #25 lucius septimius said: The left are interested in "human rights," which are the antithesis of "civil rights." Civil rights are those inherent rights of ALL individuals that are protected by the government.  Human rights are extra-legal privileges granted by the state to select groups of people, defined in ideological terms, at the expense of the civil rights of the majority.

As I've said, the gay-rights movement is, and always has been, a "human-rights" movement, not a civil-rights movement.  The fight for same-sex marriage was fought so fiercely because it granted the gay-rights movement its first toehold in civil rights law, which it has used as a siege platform against the First Amendment.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 8:38:55 AM

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In #26 buzzsawmonkey said: Extra, baffling pieces are the essence of freedom.

But in the case of Ikea's extra, baffling pieces to free assembly, the extra pieces don't match up to anything you see in the diagram.

Therefore, they're unconstitutional!

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 9:08:54 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 29:

In any free society, there will always be a few nuts and some screwy types that don't fit in.

doppelganglander 5/21/2020 9:09:20 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 20:

I think that cure is past its expiration date. Seriously, though, research into a biological basis for violent behavior is the third rail of neuroscience. 

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 9:10:08 AM

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Reply to buzzsawmonkey in 30:

Liberty requires putting up with some of the untidy aspects of human beings.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 9:10:31 AM

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In #31 doppelganglander said: I think that cure is past its expiration date.

It's such a laughably bad movie that it's actually fun to watch.

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 9:12:19 AM

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In #33 Occasional Reader said: It's such a laughably bad movie that it's actually fun to watch.

Hmmmm...where could I use an "Arabic name" like "Lafab Leba'ad?"

Syrah 5/21/2020 9:18:14 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 22:

this lockdown has given many people that crave meaning and purpose in their life, an event larger then themselves to take part in.  Better still, all they have to do is stay home most of the time and shame people that aren’t taking the crisis seriously when they go out and when they are online. Not only are they taking part in something larger than life, but they can be superior in the process, and do it all in perfect safety.

JCM 5/21/2020 9:32:35 AM

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Reply to lucius septimius in 32:

Liberty requires true tolerance.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 10:22:10 AM

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More hard-hitting journalism from the watchdog/firefighters at CNN.

JCM 5/21/2020 10:58:35 AM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 37:

A Nose for News!

vxbush 5/21/2020 11:29:46 AM

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vxbush 5/21/2020 11:39:46 AM

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In #23 Syrah said: Some food production facilities use UV lights, set on timers, to help sterilize a food prep area. i don’t know if that would in any way be applicable in your situation.

I have looked at that, and the problem is that the light only disinfects the surface where the UV rays hit. So any spaces in the dark (such as under the keys or sheets stacked under a top sheet) wouldn't get disinfected. 

vxbush 5/21/2020 11:44:53 AM

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In #22 Occasional Reader said: So, to explain further: I'm right, and you're wrong.

LOL. Okay, then. 

In #22 Occasional Reader said: But I think there's also another side to the coin; they affirmatively love the lockdown, at least at some level.  It seems to feed something they need.  They're not merely indifferent to the cost in civil liberties; they actively fetishize the concept of an entire country under house arrest. 

I'm trying to understand that mindset and all I can come up with is the desire to be in charge, which is in line with what Syrah said in #35. They can pretend to be in charge but there isn't any consequence for failure.

vxbush 5/21/2020 11:59:11 AM

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Exhibit number... oh, I've lost count. Ballot stuffing in Philadelphia paid by Democrat consultant. 

Notice the consultant is never named. Interesting. 

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 12:19:28 PM

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Reply to vxbush in 42:

"Stuffed ballot box" is the favored Thanksgiving dish of Democrats, post-election.

That's how they give thanks for all their blessings. You start with a turkey on the ballot, and go on from there.

JCM 5/21/2020 1:36:08 PM

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Reply to vxbush in 40:

Also UV lights powerful enough for disinfection are really consumer electronics. You need eye protection, and in some cases skin protection.

JCM 5/21/2020 1:41:50 PM

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Reply to JCM in 44:

duh... are not....

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 2:16:14 PM

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Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 3:59:47 PM

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lucius septimius 5/21/2020 4:04:57 PM

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Back into the kitchen to cook some more.

I've been making meals for mom's freezer.  When I finish tonight there will be a month's worth.  Now lets see if she eats any of it.

Occasional Reader 5/21/2020 4:16:44 PM

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Reply to lucius septimius in 48:

Related: It seems to me I was seeing stories two weeks ago about OMG THE FOOD SUPPLY CHAIN IS BREAKING DOWN!!!: and now... nope, not seeing them any more.  Is that your/other RBers' perception, too? 

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 4:20:44 PM

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Reply to Occasional Reader in 49:

There were problems for about two weeks, but then everything settled down.  I've noticed that the stores here have limits on how many of any given protein you can buy at once -- you can't just go in and buy twenty packages of chicken breasts, for example.  The one thing that does still seem to be in short supply is baking yeast, something most stores only stock in small quantities because hardly anyone buys it. Until OMG WE"RE ALL GOING TO STAVE FOOD PANIC!!!!!!!! 

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 4:40:35 PM

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Reply to lucius septimius in 50:

My local supermarket hasn't had any salami for weeks, but I'm managing nonetheless.

lucius septimius 5/21/2020 4:41:33 PM

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Reply to buzzsawmonkey in 51:

They're playing hide the salami?

buzzsawmonkey 5/21/2020 4:56:44 PM

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In #52 lucius septimius said: They're playing hide the salami?

Well, I didn't peek into the back of the store to see what was going on there...